Curse

lightblade · Jun 24, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

AoD is just a must have skill for Assassin...

The problem is if you want Assassin to use less AoD, you shouldn't be nerfing it. Other Assassin elites just suck too much! Mainly because AoD can be used in any situation, but other elites are just conditional.

twicky_kid · Jun 25, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Other Assassin elites just suck too much!

DING DING DING!!!!

We have a winner folks.

This is exactly what I said when GPS and AoD got a nerf. Stop nerfing skills and bring the rest up to par. Never has a melee combat attack skill been nerfed until GPS and Temple Strike. Is it overpowered at 5e? Hell no. Is it over powered at 8 recharge? Yes it is. So....why not tweak the recharge to 10-12 to bring it in line with the other recharges instead of increasing the energy cost? 1 E denial mesmer can shut down a Sin before the nerf. Now its even worse.

Lets go down the list shall we?

Dark Apostracy

First off its an enchantment. Being an enchantment almost always is a weakness. Removes an enchantment when you get a critical hit and you lose energy. Over time from the casting cost and energy loss its less efficent than expunge enchantments which is a non-elite.

Locust Fury

Again an enchantment (weakness). 30 recharge so if remove your screwed. Increases double strike chances. Double strike is not an important ability. So you can do 2 hits in 1 but you dmg is so low it doesn't even compare to 1 warrior swing.

Palm Strike

Touch skill which is a BIG plus. 10e cost and 10 recharge so is in line with other attack skill cost. Counts as an off hand strike. That is the only big benifit of this skill. We can get that with GPS and Fallen again non-elite skills.

Seeping Wound

Hex spell (can be removed quickly). The Sin hex line doesn't offer much for cover hexes. This spell is basicly a conjure phantasm with a poison or bleeding condition tacked on. 10 second recharge and doesn't last long enough to spam.

Flashing Blades

This is the undisputed king of pve for assassins. Also fuels the tank sin mentality that people are trying to prevent or get away from.

Mobius Strike

Has to follow a Dual attack. By the time you land a dual attack you are nearly out of energy. Must be below 50% life to get the recharge effect. Any healing during your combo and that affect is gone. Very difficult to obtain without twisted fangs. That makes it even less flexible.

Temple Strike

Off hand attack which is good. Less skills are needed to fullfill the requirements. Problem comes from the 15e cost and 25!!!! recharge for a 7 second condition duration. Since Dazed is on top of the stack its the first condition removed. Twisted fangs must be ran with this or you will not be able to cover the dazed.

Assassin's Promise

Hex spell (can be removed). Short duration at max 17 seconds. Only triggers when the hexed target dies. Which means that paints a HUGE bullseye on you. If you get spiked by a Sin with this hex on you and you didn't see it coming you are an idiot. 45 recharge makes is completely junk.

Shroud of Silence

Touch range hex spell (again can be removed). Disables your spells which isn't really a hinder because its used by wars mostly. 30 second recharge for at max 9 second affect. Black out beats this skill in nearly every way. Only advantage is it disables spells and not all skills so wars don't lose their adrenaline.

Siphon Strength

Hex spell (should I repeat this?). At max duration 10 seconds and 30 recharge. -30 dmg dealt and increases your chances of landing a critical but ONLY on the hexed foe. Energy gain isn't that important as your critical attribute can carry you fine so the increased critical is null. -30 dmg is great but its a hex with a 10 sec duration. Will either be removed quickly or just wait the 10 seconds. Still doesn't stop a war from gaining adrenaline.

Way of the Empty Palm

Enchantment (can be removed). Last for 17 seconds at max with a 25 recharge. That isn't a bad cool down time but being an enchantment with a mid long duration means more likely it is to be removed. Off hand and dual attacks cost no energy. Again energy is no problem with critical attribute and this does not change the recharge on your skills. This skill does just about nothing.

Beguiling Haze

A touch range interrupt. That right there spells weakness all over it. Sins are never going to be in touch range unless they are fleeing a war or unloading a combo on a target. The dazed affect is not that great because again Sins have no spammable cover conditions they can use without being in the middle of the flay.

Shadow Form

This is basicly Mist Form. The exact reasons you don't run mist form is the exact same reasons you don't use this skill. The cannot be targeted aspect is nice. Bad part is the game increased the number of ways you can remove an enchantment without targeting. As an added bonus when its removed you might as well stamp DEAD on your forehead.

Shadow Shroud

Hex spell. Paints a Bulleye on the target about to be spiked. Last for 8 seconds with a 20 sec recharge. We can spike through boon prots right now. Why do we need this?

Aura of Displacement

Does the job of 2 skills. 0 attribute points needed. Addes more mobility than any other skill in the game. Downside is the -1 energy regen while maintained.

Look at all the elites strength and weaknesses. Then look at AoD. The reason its the best is perfectly clear. It has more strengths then weaknesses. The weakness is controlled by you so you can choose when to swallow that -1 energy regen.

Many of the Enchantment skills on a Sin should be changed to stances or skills. Enchantments have casting times which makes the distance between you and the target greater. Makes them removable with long recharge times.

Vlad Mortuus · Jun 25, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Mobius Strike

Has to follow a Dual attack. By the time you land a dual attack you are nearly out of energy. Must be below 50% life to get the recharge effect. Any healing during your combo and that affect is gone. Very difficult to obtain without twisted fangs. That makes it even less flexible.

I keep seeing everyone say that by the time they get to mobius they are out of energy, the build I currently run, im up to almost full(usually between 18-21 eng) by the time I have hit my mobius.

twicky_kid · Jun 25, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Mortuus

I keep seeing everyone say that by the time they get to mobius they are out of energy, the build I currently run, im up to almost full(usually between 18-21 eng) by the time I have hit my mobius.

Best Combo I've seen so far is GPS>Twisted fangs>mobius>Horns of the ox

Still why us mobius there when fallen spider will do the same dmg and give poison for more dmg. Why use an elite when a non-elite can do a better job?

Dmg is not a problem for Sins, surviving is. Your elite should be used for survival over dmg.

Bio-Flame · Jun 25, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

I am going to check the AoD vs Other Sin Elites from another perspective:

It's not the other Sin Elites are crap per se - which by the way, they ARE!

- but the point is that AoD is just sine qua non for an Assassin to fullfil its job.

Let me put that on other words: The rest of the Sin's Elites are crap. Granted. Even if they were buffed, hugely buffed (the ELITES mind you, not the shadow step regular skills) they still wouldn't be used.

Why? It's because the SHADOW STEP skills, the regular ones, they are crap. They aren't worth the pixels they are made of. Why in hell would I as an Assassin would want to Shadow Step into the middle of a fight If I don't have a way to get out??
With the current Shadow Step skills you will shadow step in, sure thing but you won't get out because you'll die in the middle of those hard-hitting Warriors, Crippling Rangers, Lightning Orb/Snaring Eles, etc....

Remember, Assassination is get in, Kill, get out. There is no assassin that goes in kills but dies in there. That's not an Assassin that's a suicide bomber.

In GWs, the way Assassins were designed (low AL, melee character) you really need to be able to retreat very fast because you can't take the punishment for more than a few seconds.

The only skill that allows you go Assassin - get in, kill, get out - is AoD and AoD is an ELITE. So you MUST take it and that means you can't take any other elite.
So the other Elites could be buffed to heaven and back and we'd still be using AoD.

Plus, AoD is an enchantment which fullfils the GPS enchant requirement, thus triggering the GPS-HoO-FS-TF combo, arguably the most powerfull Sin combo.

A final summary: it's not that the Elites are bad on their own, it's just that in order to survive Assassins must take AoD and AoD is an Elite.

twicky_kid · Jun 25, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I don't know about that Bio.

Some of the Sin elites before they were turned down during the beta were picked over AoD, Temple strike mainly. The 15e cost was enough to prevent Temple strike from being overpowered. Then they added a 25 recharge on release of game. TS is only good with twisted fangs to cover the dazed and blind. Both together is 30 energy so there is no way you can land a full combo without getting a critical in there somewhere.

I think if they change some of the enchantments to skills or stances you could use them with better effect with less chance of removal. If its a skill it cannot be removed. Sins should be able to bypass a defense and kill its target. The only thing that will let you do that right now is AoD. Enchantment removal is too common to risk running an enchantment elite with a high recharge.

lightblade · Jun 25, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Dark Apostracy

Must land a critical strike to trigger it. What if your attack is blocked or evaded or you just happen to get blinded? Assassins uses little enchantments, so there won't be cover enchantments to provent this from being shattered.

Locust Fury

Double Strike is just weak! Since your attack skills doesn't trigger double stike and Assassins are pretty much using attack skills all the time, Locust Fury and it's double strike becomes useless

Palm Strike

Cost 10 energy and cannot knockdown (like it used to). It's not powerful enough to be an elite.

Seeping Wound

Like twicky_kid already said, it's a weaker version of conjure phantasm and it's conditional

Flashing Blades

"While attacking" and it's a stance...wild blow cancels it and you cannot re-apply it for a good amount of time. It stops working when people start to kite you.

Mobius Strike

Usually, when you actually get to use Mobius Strike after a dual attack, your target are either not below 50% hp yet due to healings. Or...when there's no healing, he's dead already!

Temple Strike

Slow recharge and heavy energy cost. And it can be blocked or evaded.

Assassin's Promise

It's just hard to cast it between your attack skill chain. Because the time for you to cast it is enough time for your target to get healed up.

Shroud of Silence

Slow recharge and touch range (which is even closer than your dagger's attack range!)

Siphon Strength

Slow recharge, and the only benefit you get from this is the energy return from critical strikes. Assassin's critial strike doesn't do much damage (same as a normal hammer attack)

Way of the Empty Palm

Doesn't need it at all, everyone knows zealous dagger grant you enough energy to do all your moves.

Beguiling Haze

Touch interrupt? It have a slower range than weapon! Unless a monk just stand there and don't move to heal, this skill will never get close enough to interrrupt.

Shadow Form

20 seconds...when it ends...you die! It does give the oppertunity for you to use all 4 sup runes though

Shadow Shroud

ditto as twicky_kid

Lets Get to Healing · Jun 25, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I like Temple Strike ALOT. I ran it in the factions PvP weekend and fell in lurve. Its great because it gives daze, the best condition EVA!

Ensign · Jun 25, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Remember that during the factions preview weekend, Temple Strike was stronger (10 energy, 15 recharge) and the only place people could really test the class was in the arenas. Also, Aura of Displacement had a nasty two second cast time on it. Balance has changed quite a bit between then and now.

A lot of assassin elites aren't neccessarily bad, they simply do not help the assassin do his job for the most part - that being comboing out an opponent. Shadow Shroud is a strong mes effect that's been a component of a lot of spikes - but it's rarely run on a primary assassin. Assassin's Promise has recently started seeing use in the Soul Barbs spike (it recharges itself when it triggers) but again, that's not on an assassin primary.

Temple Strike? Sure, Daze is nice - in arena - but is it so nice that you want to spend 15 on a 25 second recharge for it? Not really. Obviously some people still like it at that cost, but not most. Moebius Strike? Well, what attack do you want to double? Death Blossom in PvE, sure...in PvP though you basically *need* Twisting Fangs, and there's no point in doubling that. Anything you would want to double would still need to set up the Twist at the end, and there just isn't enough energy to make that happen. Palm Strike? Not a bad skill in concept, but you can duplicate the effects with Golden Phoenix Strike and a minimal amount of work. Locust's Fury? That'll see play as soon as people start talking about the DPS assassin.

Aura of Displacement, though, performs a job that *cannot* be performed by any combination of non-elite skills. It's the best movement skill in the game, bar none, and for a class that relies entirely on movement for effectiveness that's basically required. I don't know that you'd ever see a serious assassin being run if Aura of Displacement wasn't good, the profession really doesn't have a lot of things going for it.

Peace,
-CxE

ogami_ito · Jun 25, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Assassins Promise > black Lotus Strike > whatever dual. at the end of this, you are full on energy and every skill is refreshed (including Assassins Promise), IF the target dies. So you have to be very carefull who you attack. I think this is much better than AoD in PvE. Not sure I would use it in PVP though.

ogami_ito · Jun 25, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

This is OT, but this thread is heading there anyway.

And another thing...why so many people down on the sin? I played a ranger through Prophesies. Fun and all. But playing a sin is much more fun. Looks cooler than a warrior. Quicker spike (NOT neccessarilly better spike, but quicker). And pretty darn effective in PvP. Maybe not the strongest, but effective + fun = good class. I

n PvE, probably not the MOST effective class to bring in a group, but so what? Still fun. And very doable. I died alot when I first started playing it. Now I do the hit-run thing. I can quickly take down caster mobs without any help...my ranger could not do that nearly as quickly. And now, I don't die. Just pick targets carefully. Stay in the back till your ready to fight (like how I play a ranger). I don't have a problem. My groups (I think) like me...but that's not because I play a sin good, but because I try to play as a team-mate, which is what most people don't do whatever class they play.

BTW, I played PvP with the sin first time in the Fort Ashwood (I think) mission. I could not touch rangers, but they couldnt do much to me either. Warriors were...not that good for me, but neither could they kill me easilly if I kite. Monks, Ele, Necros, Mesmers, at Rts just died under my blades. (althought to be fair, if the Mesmer targets me first, I'm dead because their degen and other crap stays with me as I run out of range)

Saider maul · Jun 25, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I would really like to see more of a comprimise from the preview.
The assassin is the only class with a reduced evade/block.

I did not ask for anything We did not have in the preview nor was it as strong as the skills were then.

shadows refuge did have the evade at preview.

Its a FACT... the assassin has an issue with how it takes dmg and manages it.

So some change is in order.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 25, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Hmm AoD ME LIKEY leaves the enemy with an OMG HAXXORZ look on their faces. But I have to argue about moebius and energy management, I would use it with me becuase I run mending all the time due to vamp so my combo would look like this.

GLS(at max dagger ten e back so free with +5 energy)>Fox Fangs(free thanks to GLS)>Death Blossom>Moebius>TF I still have roughly 15-20 energy left to spit out another combo, not to mention the crits I will be spitting out. Also AoD is very effective in PvE just gotta pick yer targets, Monk and stuff don't bunch together even in PvE.

Evilsod · Jun 25, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Its true that the damage an assassin gives is utterly pathetic in comparison to a warrior. BUT a warrior doesn't gain energy on hit if its critical.

I have been running this with henchman. Locusts Fury for the 50% chance of double strike (with 15 Dagger Mastery), Critical Eye (if i could ever get hold of a Zealous Dagger mod that too), Watch Yourself and Frenzy.

Yes i did just say Frenzy

It appeared in my skillbar when i changed professions and forgot to change it out, since then i've been finding it quite amusing to use with the insane attack speed and energy gain for spamming attacks for some decent damage in a very short time.

Incase your wondering, i'm not a very experienced assassin outside of Henchman

twicky_kid · Jun 25, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

I'd agree with Ensign on the skills being balanced for other classes. I can see how some of these can be abused. What I don't see is how these elite skills can do a job better than another elites or a non-elite of other classes. You name the class and elite and I can think of something better to use within that class.

They should really add the Knockdown back on to Palm strike. Instead they moved it to that crappy lead off with a 20 second recharge. Even then its not that effective. No KD gloves, 3/4 casting (.75 aftercast), 1.33 attack rate since sins have no IAS. After AC that's 1.5 seconds. Your opponent will be up before you land your next attack.

Nother gripe if mine is why is it only 2 dual attacks are even worth using? Why is there no elite lead off or dual attack but we get 3 off hand?

Blades of Steel
+15 dmg for each recharge dagger attack (max 50). Twisted fangs is a critical strike attack. With 4 attack skills and TS that will get you a +30 dmg. That's equal to horn of the ox with no knock down.

Critical Strike
+25 dmg and hits result in critical strikes. Critical strikes do on avg 33-40 dmg. That's still not equal to horns.

Death Blossom
Really a pve skill. Will never see pvp play. Maybe HA with the close quarters fights but I don't see a use outside of that.

Exhausting Assault
A dual attack interrupt. This is about useless. It has to follow 1-2 attacks. Have to be close range to interrupt. If an assassin is on you are you ever sitting still? I'm running straight at my monk or an ally to prevent horns from knocking me down most of the time.

Nine Tail Strike
This is my 3rd choice. It does more dmg than other dual attacks. Is part of a trio of cannot evade or block attack skills. That 3 hit combo is garunteed to land if you are not blinded.

ogami_ito · Jun 26, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Another OT, but why is knockdown so highly rated? Its an interupt sure, but why is it so valued? You can use disrupting strike to easilly get an interupt to.

Phades · Jun 26, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A lot of assassin elites aren't neccessarily bad, they simply do not help the assassin do his job for the most part - that being comboing out an opponent.

The real question arising from this statement would be, why were these eleite skills in the assassin skill set to begin with? That would be like putting frenzy/flurry in the mesmer skill sets along with the ranger ias skills, while at the same time moving divine boon to necromancers and so on. Many of the eliete skills call for the assassin to remain in melee range for a extended duration. This can be suicide for a assassin in pve and longer effects in pvp tend to get countered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Temple Strike? Sure, Daze is nice - in arena - but is it so nice that you want to spend 15 on a 25 second recharge for it? Not really. Obviously some people still like it at that cost, but not most.

Since you brought twisting fangs anyway, the target had to pull off 3 conditions to get down to the dazed if they werent dead. If the assassin was working solo and using temple strike, then chances are that the target was still alive at the conclusion of the combination. Those 2 skills together were rather nice with a illusion mesmer that spread around fragility as well, though it was less reliable than just using a necro for combination orders. The nerf to temple strike and alteration of twisting fangs was just weird to see when i came back to the game following the release. Basically it screamed, "rangers abused us so we were changed". Why they both werent changed in the same way ill never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Palm Strike? Not a bad skill in concept, but you can duplicate the effects with Golden Phoenix Strike and a minimal amount of work. Locust's Fury? That'll see play as soon as people start talking about the DPS assassin.

Thats probably the biggest problem with most of the assassin skill combos. Since they can opt to skip steps using non-eliete skills in more than one instance, it just feeds the apathy towards the profession in general. This is in addition to the profession being required to use combinations and no options to bypass or play differently within the deadly arts line, which could be easily defered to a ranger or warrior secondary instead since none of it fits well with a primary assassin build. What i found funny durring the first preview event, was how people were trying to sell assassins as dps characters under ranger spike conditions which mirrored the hundred blades arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Aura of Displacement, though, performs a job that *cannot* be performed by any combination of non-elite skills. It's the best movement skill in the game, bar none, and for a class that relies entirely on movement for effectiveness that's basically required. I don't know that you'd ever see a serious assassin being run if Aura of Displacement wasn't good, the profession really doesn't have a lot of things going for it.

The profession never had much going for it, since it is so one dimensional. The non-eliete shadowstepping skills could stand to get buffed alot to be considered useful at all. None of them really create any kind of synergy that AOD does. The golden phoenix strike,black mantis thrust, and falling spider could really stand to be tuned to only trigger when part of a combo though, in order to return meaning to some skills like palm strike and the lead off attacks in general. That would come as a rather large nerf towards the class, but i think it has to happen before the profession as a whole can begin to be rebalanced in the right direction.

Other changes that would be inline with the class theme as it is now, would be to make most all of the target based hexes teleportation skills. Skills like sleeping wound, enduring toxin, expose defenses, assassin's promise, mark of death, siphon strength, shadowy burden(dark prision needs love though), mirrored stance, way of the lotus, and mark of instability would be greatly improved if they were shadow step skills delivering the assassin to the target in order to make the effects be used by the assassin instead of someone else. Although, given many of the listed effects, alot of them wouldnt get used, but it would at least be a suggestion from ANET that there could be some possible alternate setup than using AoD->gps->Hoo->Fs->Tf. Even warriors and monks are not limited to the same 5 skills in every possible situation.

twicky_kid · Jun 26, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The profession never had much going for it, since it is so one dimensional. The non-eliete shadowstepping skills could stand to get buffed alot to be considered useful at all. None of them really create any kind of synergy that AOD does. The golden phoenix strike,black mantis thrust, and falling spider could really stand to be tuned to only trigger when part of a combo though, in order to return meaning to some skills like palm strike and the lead off attacks in general. That would come as a rather large nerf towards the class, but i think it has to happen before the profession as a whole can begin to be rebalanced in the right direction.

I don't like this suggestion. We should be promoting the buff of the other skills not the nerf of the only combo that is near leathal. Sins need a huge buff to their dmg from skills. Right now its impossible to kill anything in one combo without Twisted.

We need to bring the other skill in line with this combo not nerf it. 2 combos barely fit on a bar. If you cannot bypass the lead attacks that will make you go down to 1 combo of 3 skills. That will take a big punch out of their dmg without 2 dual attacks.

KD is an interrupt, snare, and increases chance of a critical hit all in 1. That's why its good.

Phades · Jun 26, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I don't like this suggestion. We should be promoting the buff of the other skills not the nerf of the only combo that is near leathal. Sins need a huge buff to their dmg from skills. Right now its impossible to kill anything in one combo without Twisted.

We need to bring the other skill in line with this combo not nerf it. 2 combos barely fit on a bar. If you cannot bypass the lead attacks that will make you go down to 1 combo of 3 skills. That will take a big punch out of their dmg without 2 dual attacks.

KD is an interrupt, snare, and increases chance of a critical hit all in 1. That's why its good.

So then perhaps just opt to delete all the lead off attacks in general then, because there is no reason to run any of them given the effect of the dual attacks and how a select few skills bypass the need to run them altogether. Personally id rather see a reason for them to exist in the first place.

ogami_ito · Jun 26, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

KD increases chance of critical hit?